forum.vdsworld.com

PGWARE · **Web Host** Joined: 29 Dec 2001 Posts: 1566

I don't think Tommy is going to censure your posts because you wished certain things were in VDS. But you have to realize VDS will NEVER compete against full fledged programming languages - C++, Delphi, VB. Simply because it would take an enormous amount of time to upgrade it and keep it competitve with the other languages out there. Not only that but VDS would then loose its distinction - how it's easy to use. While flat controls would be nice their only a GUI related issue which honestly is not what most users want. Trust me VDS is not dead - very far from it and if you wait just a little longer you're wishes just may come true. For now take a look at the gadget.dll. You'll be able to call custom dll's and I'm sure there are tons of custom dll's out there in other languages which allow you to access flat controls.

Serge · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 4:57 am Post subject:

wow...thanks for all your replies...i can see now why you would want to use VDS and it certainly helps me appreciate more the simplicity (and power) of VDS Very Happy

Serge

cnodnarb · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 1:53 pm Post subject:

I don't believe Tommy will either, as that would be inequitable. VDS does compete against full fledged programming languages, every time any one of us decides to use it, it wins. The help file contains a cop out, that if were true, no one would use VDS. It may take enormous amounts of time to upgrade, but it is already competitive; if SADE doesn't want to invest time into VDS they should sell it to someone that will. That's not to say SADE doesn't want to develop; it is obvious SADE wants to see VDS have more features...why else would they have purchased VDSELM.DLL...and why would they have ever upgraded it from 2 to version 3 and 4 for that matter. Flat controls would be nice, but they are only a GUI feature, your right on that one, but one of these small features may be that feature which causes a user to implement VDS as a solution over another language, which gives VDS that much more value. I've had a look at gadget, and while VERY impressive I would have to decide to use another language to implement the solutions it creates as it moves outside the code simplicity level of VDS, another feature which makes VDS valuable.

A in context quote from another post of mine...

If you do what you've always done you get what you've always got (or less in the tech field).

NodNarb

cnodnarb · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 1:58 pm Post subject:

I just noticed something else too...if this statement is true...then why does VDS blow these languages away?

DialogScript is not intended to be an alternative to programming languages like C, Basic or Pascal for application development.

Copyright ©1995 - 2000 S.A.D.E. s.a.r.l. / All rights are reserved.

Seems to me VDS has moved beyond it's initial intentions.

NodNarb

vdsalchemist · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 3:01 pm Post subject:

Hi All,
While yes it is true that other languages look more powerful than VDS but define "Powerful"? If powerful is defined as being able to do anything you want then I guess VDS is not your language. I for one think VDS is very powerful because I define a language being powerful in how much work do I have to do to do what I want to do Wink

Also these reasons was why I built my Gadget.dll.... Shameless plug here Wink

Actually I have examples showing how to build new controls for VDS in the Gadget software distribution. And I will be making others. Maybe I will make some examples of Flat controls. For most common controls the 3D effect is just a style attribute anyway. Some of them default to this and you have to turn it off.
As for the API message I posted if you do decide to use Gadget then you could Hook the mousebutton message and reset the button to flat. What it is VDS's message loop redraw's most of the elements because they are sub-classed controls and owner drawn controls. I understand why S.A.D.E. made them that way but sometimes I do wish they would export all the attributes of the control. I tried to do things like change the color of text in the EDIT element but everytime my Gadget DLL would change the color the VDS message loop would try to put it back when the control was repainted Confused

I was able to change the Font through API messages and Gadget. Anyway what I am trying to say is if you want full control then use Gadget to build your controls but then your program will have to control everything and I mean everything. One suggestion if you like Gadget and you want to use it then go out and get any Win32 API book by "Charles Pezold"... I have a copy that has the C/C++ code but I think he does have one for VB that is the same just with VB syntax.
Just remember because Gadget is external to the VDS language it can't do everything and there for you might have to build other DLL's to do the things that neither Gadget nor VDS can do. But if you do have Gadget at least you don't have to build it specially for VDS. It can be a general DLL.

FreezingFire · **Admin Team** Joined: 23 Jun 2002 Posts: 3508

Here's a simple piece of code that will re-send the API: Smile

cnodnarb · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 3:18 pm Post subject:

Maybe I'll have to have another look at that gadget thingy Laughing

But actually the core of the matter is I submitted a feature request, got a solution which was inadequete, submitted my own response explaining why the solution was inadequte...then got told to go use another language.

Basically the equivelent of telling someone to go jump in a lake.

How would people feel if I went down the wish list and recommended for every feature someone asked for I told them a language that could do it and told them to use it instead. "Oh, VDS can't do it; you should use Visual Basic for that."

This is a VDS message board...you won't find me plugging other languages here.

NodNarb

vdsalchemist · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 4:11 pm Post subject:

Actually NodNarb,
I don't think this request is a unreasonable request and I don't think you need to go get another language to do what you have requested. I don't think the people on this board was trying to tell you to go look somewhere else but you can't expect a solution for such a large request to be produced overnight Question

Well I have not had a chance to read all of the post's for this thread yet. Maybe I will. You can do it with VDS but you currently cannot do it with VDS alone. You will need an external DLL to do this for now and the only DLL that is currently capable is my Gadget.dll and even that you would have to do some research and a little work to make it happen.
I would hate to see you switch to another language and I think others on this message board feels the same way. I don't think Tommy or anyone was telling you to switch but rather just saying that your request would take some time to fulfill and for S.A.D.E. to do this it would take even longer because S.A.D.E. has alot going on. The question is that this seems like a easy request to you but what we are saying is that we have built software with other languages and know it is not that easy to make controls.
Also note Tommy does use a translater with some of his post's so sometimes the translater makes mistakes and expressions do not come across as well as other times. But I must say he has gotten very good with his English Very Happy

I applaud his learning English and if I can ever find the time I will learn his native language so we can talk clearer.

vdsalchemist · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 4:28 pm Post subject:

Also NodNarb,
Just a little correction to your post Wink

.net is not a language... .net is a addon to languages so they can pass objects freely between langages over the internet. So .net would be consider a programming method and not a language itself.

vdsalchemist · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 4:38 pm Post subject:

Oops my bad,
Sorry NodNarb I re-read your post again and you were not actually saying that .NET is a language.
Anyway one with the knowledge could make VDS .NET and extend the VDS language to include this. After all I do have an example of a DLL that allows one to use SOAP objects from the Google SDK. The DLL is just a wrapper but it does show that nothing is impossible.

Skit3000 · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 5:27 pm Post subject:

I think that VDS is a very powerfull, and easy to use programming language. The reason for this is that you can start using it with just a few commands to know, but how more you know about it, how complexer your programs can be. Just take a look at HTML & Javascript. People who learn HTML use in the begin only things like <BR> and <B>. But how more they know, how more they can make. But people will always appreciate it. You can make things according on which level you are. But if you use Javascript and you make a simple code that askes for a name or something, people are laughing at you, because it's too easy. With complex languages you just must know a lot about it before you can use it.

The same thing with VDS and any other language. With VDS you can make easy programs that look proffesional, but if you make the same program with an other language, people will say that it is too easy. But to make complex programs with VB or C++ for example, you have to know a lot more then with VDS, altrough people who just start using VDS can sometimes make the same...

cnodnarb · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 5:30 pm Post subject:

Mindpower, this refers to the beginning of this thread, and was not aimed at you.

"But actually the core of the matter is I submitted a feature request, got a solution which was inadequete, submitted my own response explaining why the solution was inadequte...then got told to go use another language. "

Although you might have mistook it for mine and your interaction on this thread because we followed a similar pattern...it's not the case. Refers back to the first 4 post.

(Although this might be a misconception your having a misconception...correct me if i'm wrong!)

You will also want to look over the thread "Parsing problems" in bug reports to better understand what is actually happening here, where I may have came out on the wrong foot somehow...it would appear that some thought I was being prideful when I thought I was merely establishing credentials to add weight to my opinion.

Tommy, i'm done posting until you reply by the way, hopefully you'll be able to navigate and sort all this out! I don't want to move any further away from the real issue. Wink

Brandon Cunningham

Tommy · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 10:02 pm Post subject:

CNodnarb, I think you are taking this up a bit too high... It was merely meant as a joke.
It also wasn't aimed at your initial request but rather at your later reaction stating "I want"
and not "I wish": I want flat combo's, list, edit fields, progress bars... the whole kit and
kaboodle. Of course everyone is free to ask, but that doesn't mean you'll get what you
ask for.

What I said was also making clear that this feature will probably never be actually
be implemented. Please realize that if such thing has to be implemented for every single
control (buttons, combo's, lists, edit boxes, progress bars and even more), it will probably
require a modification to each of them which is plenty of work.

When VDS 4 came out, many GUI changes were done which must have costed a great deal
of work. People were pretty disappointed though because I think they were expecting language
improvements more than GUI improvements. I think the same applies for this and that S.A.D.E.
may not find it to be very important.

As a note on what Johnny said, I never use a translator for Dutch to English, neither I use
one for the reverse thing, as simply none exist. Any that may do exist translate on a per
word base which are absolutely useless.

What I do use sometimes of course is a dictionary, but there aren't many mistakes made by
using just that.

Tommy

vdsalchemist · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:29 pm Post subject:

Well Tommy I am even more impressed Worship

Your English in the posts is so good... Sometimes better than mine and I have been speaking English all my life;-) hehehehehehehehe
NodNarb I didn't mean to get in the middle of this and I agree with Tommy about S.A.D.E. and the amount of work that would be involved in updating every GUI element in VDS... but everyone should try and look at it from S.A.D.E.'s point of view... They have only had control of the language for what is it now?? 3 to 4 versions. I think they have done a pretty good job and have really brought it out of the dark ages:-) One thing I think needs to be said is that VDS is not limited other than the OS that it was built for. After all you can build external DLL's to extend it;-) I know many of the VDS purest might not like that statement but even other languages have their shortcommings and you have to build parts in other langauges too...

cnodnarb · Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2002 11:35 pm Post subject:

I think I better understand what happend now...I noticed on a couple of post people thought I meant that this is a time sensitive issue...which is not the case.

Of course I can't have what I want when I want it, although it would be nice Wink

Thanx for clearing things up Tommy!

NodNarb

PS As far as NEVER having this feature implemented...I have a little more faith than that! It just might take till VDS 8 or so...